War in the Middle East Disscusion

[SALVO]

Maybe some immigrants are hostile because some locals take issue with them being there or maybe they just flat out dislike you for no reason or anywhere in between, hostility is a defense mechanism. Either way, boarders aside, we're all human, we all want some form of prosperity, it just so happens that you can obtain it easiest in America. I don't know the numbers for other countries but generally it takes about 2 to 3 generations to assimilate to American culture. People used to hold hostilities to the German, Chinese and Irish immigrants that came here the same way they hold them now for immigrants, legal or not, that come here from South and Central America. Everyone here just seems to blend in after a while, and we realize that we actually do have a lot in common with one another.
Sorry, don't mean to sound preachy, just thought I'd take up the other side of the argument.

^Hey SALVO, re-write that post you put up that didnt show for some reason. Im interested in hearing some more of your thoughts.

From what I understand our major objectives before the war started were:
1.Capture Osama - Hes still around, maybe he has less influence but he's still around.
2.Get Saddam's WMD's - He never really had any in the first place, and suddenly the tittle of the campaign is "Operation Iraqi Freedom." We didn't really see the need to "free" them when we were there for desert storm. OH and I almost forgot, the neo-con's are still pretending that there was a connection between Saddam and Al Qaeda but have zero proof, talk about wishful thinking.
3.Dismantle Al Qaeda - This is a tough one, I know we've caught some of the high cards but it seems like, judging from the scale of America's response to 9/11, we've only inadvertently given them credit for their deeds making them even more appealing for those who identify more with the terrorists than they do with the western world.


Really? People are still dying to this day over there and the mission has been accomplished? Why the hell are we sticking around if our job is done?

I really don't what we've accomplished in the middle east yet, maybe some small victories, AA, you've been there yourself I'm sure you have some first hand experiences of positive things happening, I think its safe to say that a lot of the locals there have welcomed you with open arms. Maybe some people feel safer over there since the army's arrival, but I don't feel any safer here. I probably have a greater chance of being killed by a lightning bolt than being a victim of a terrorist attack. And if I'm wrong, and we are safer because you guys are over there, what happens when, and we'll have to eventually, we pull you guys out?

[Thrice]

While we were able to seize mass killing weapons and Saddam; we still had troops stationed in Iraq to help the citizens of the country fight for themselves and develop into a better nation with a more prosperous future. Not just leave right when we kill Saddam and make sure they're no threat to us and let the country continue to rot from the inside out and have militia kick the shit out of the innocent. Im not saying a democracy is the right choice or we are in any position to change their gov't or way of life, but there are hundreds of thousands of people being killed off by militia. It's not civil war, it's fuckin' genocide.

[Thrice]

As far as immigration goes there is always tensions with foreigners, but when you illegally come into our country and bring you drug cartel shit in our country and kill innocent people we are going to get pissed off. Come here to embrace our country and it's freedoms and equality, not to exploit it. Shit like this won't fly.

[SALVO]

As far as immigration goes there is always tensions with foreigners, but when you illegally come into our country and bring you drug cartel shit in our country and kill innocent people we are going to get pissed off. Come here to embrace our country and it's freedoms and equality, not to exploit it. Shit like this won't fly.

I agree with this to a degree. I think its important to stress that the drug cartel war is so close to America because they're competing for American buyers. The demand for drugs in America is unmatched anywhere else throughout the world. Its simple economics, if they operate closer to the boarder the drugs go through fewer hands on their way up to the states, making it a bigger margin of profit. We are the ones fueling these cartels.
Thats my take on it at least.

[NiL]

Too bad you were joking. I'm fucking middle eastern and I'll admit they're all useless as shit. I believe the UK's trying to pass a bill that would bar Muslims from publicly displaying their religion, because a red dot has become the poster for terrorism, and that's no one's fault but theirs. Stereotypes don't just happen for no reason. I work with/ am in contact with them all day long. And El Cajon (The city I lived in for most of my life, in San Diego) is 40% Caldian. They're rude, demanding, can't speak to another human being in a reasonable fashion, even their own people, and treat women like lesser species. Whatever, that's fine, if you want that, stay in a country where it's acceptable. It isn't here. These people come straight from their countries to ours. The absurd amount of Africans we have here are the same way. (Not black people. Africans. As in people that have literally been in the country a few years.)

They do not ask you for aid, they demand you give it to them. Just interact with these people for twenty minutes and it's obvious where they come from is all but left in the stoneage. And I'm not racist for saying that, it's not MY fault. It may not be theirs either, but it's true regardless.


As for the war in the middle east, HOW long have the Jews and Muslims been at it, involving every other community on the planet to some degree or another? Someone has to knock some sense into the children bickering and breaking the furniture. May as well be SUPERMERICA.


No, but really, I don't like this country much at all. But you can't leave these idiots to try and work out their own problems, because they're not NEARLY intelligent enough to civilize anything. The shit gets out of control, and they involve everyone else. See: World War II.

I love this guy.

They are rude cunts. And victims.
Right now in Australia Indians are coming in like no tomorrow and they're doing it illegaly. To take the heat off them and make them look innocent one sets himself on fire and says some Australians did it. Theres a bunch of proof to say he did it.

Then I witnessed it for my own eyes cause they;re fucking hopeless taxi drivers. Driving however the fuck they want breaking the rules and causing accidents. I seen a taxi driver cut off another guy then call the police and say he got punched in the head while the rest of his fucking taxi bum buddies came and packed the streets to help back him up. Might I add this was in the middle of the Gold Coast full of clubs and pubs security everywhere. Guess
who got introuble that night!? The Indian.

Anyways them cunts may not be the whole 'middle east' discussion we're on. But they're also fucking judge mental, aswell as Muslim men looking at western women as if they were dressed like disgraceful sluts.

They get offended we celebrate Christmas and hang decorations in the shopping centers. You come to a country you accept their ways not change it for your stupid shit.

[.A.K.4.7.]

Haha, australians are so racist. Your going on about africans and muslims coming to australia and not accepting 'your ways', hey mate, remember that you lot came to australia and basically wiped out the aboriginal race, tried to actively breed them out of existence, took their children from their families and put them in white families, and only in a 1967 referendum even considered them humans and not animals. 1967 for fucks sake!
You lot didn't exactly accept 'their ways' did you? Your country only officially apologized for these atrocities 2 years ago or some shit. You just sound like a racist.

[4ENOD]

Nice picture there Thrice!

[jape-the-nape]

hahaha word up ak (y)..

[the cannabis evangelist]

While we were able to seize mass killing weapons and Saddam; we still had troops stationed in Iraq to help the citizens of the country fight for themselves and develop into a better nation with a more prosperous future. .

who the fuck were the American and uk governments to decide the citizens of iraq needed help. or a better country


oh thats right a bunch of oil hungry egotistical cunts. who get up on a fucking high horse every time they need to ''liberate'' a bunch of cheap migrant workers and resources from some nutjob dictator they probily palled around with at some point

[Alchohlics_Anonymous]

To Salvo,

Good points, and tobe honest, I really dont know, what that whole "Mission Accomplished" thing was about, even to this day..haha. But in regards to the whole victory thing, you must remember (and throughout Basic this was instilled in us) that in order to win a war, you obviously must win many small battles, both literally and figuratively (as in making differances for the people, govt. etc. not just "The Battle at Treetop Hill" or whatever, which is what i think you meant anyways. And obviously over time those victories turn into something much larger. But just from our conversations I know you realize that. But besideds physically winning almost all of the small engagements we get in everyday, we have given the people over there the ability to safely vote for their leader (for the most part). And like you said, we have made it safer for the people over there to live, and walk around, and just do the neccasary daily things they do. But then you asked that dreadful question pertaining to the publics safety over here in the US. Although I cant say much about the things that our unit discovered, or atleast the specifics, nor any other units discoveries (since I dont know all that they did/found/put a stop to), I can atleast say this, and I beleive I did before in a previous post, that our military has NOW (just talked to a friend of mine still stationed over there) put a stop to atleast 500 operations that were deemed very likely to have been put into place (which is a hard classification to receive) that wouldve injured/killed people over here in the US. And those are just the ops that are considered to be of level 2 threat (100-500 possible/probable deaths... anything above 2 is immedialetly sent up to a differant branch (NSA/USMC/NTAIL co-op) and no longer touched by my unit, although usually later we were the ones sent in to take the dudes in for P&I and depending on the outcome, debreifing. (Also, everyone over here jokes about the CIA, and all that, but as far as I could see, the NSA and a couple other various govt agencies are really the ones doing all the dirty work/spy games shit you read about. And as far as pulling out, your right, we will have to, but the whole point is to ready them enough to where theyre able to handle it, and hopefully by then weve eradicated much of the local and international threats coming out of that area of the world. I know I probably didnt really keep to alot of what you were talking about, seeing as how I kinda rambled on.

Oh and to whomever said this war is purely about oil, us being over there actually HURTS the oil industry. Prices go up, difficulties go up, the less people buy/use oil, the less money they make. (Obviously thats very simplistic look at the situation, an entire new thread could be devoted purely to that discussion haha).

[SALVO]

Our goals weren't to establish democracy in Iraq, in fact, it has never been our goal to establish true democracy during any of our conquests. We just want countries that will play ball with us, allies that will allow us to plop a few missile silos in their soil, or maybe an airforce or army base. Just like Germany or Korea or Japan. Its power politics, its strategic posturing.

We have a constant presence in the middle east. We have huge ships stationed in the gulf, bases in Kuwait and now Iraq and Afghanistan. America is represented in the middle east by armored Humvees careening down local streets, destroyer ships, tanks, trigger happy contractors, and predator drones. We drop a bomb on a city block where we think the bad guys are, and collateral damage is a mere afterthought. The Pentagon doesn't even count civilian casualties, don't you think thats a little strange? Chucking MRE's to little kids off the side of a tank is not how you win hearts and minds.

We're no safer than we were before. If we really wanted to be practical about this we would pull all of our troops out of the middle east and distance ourselves from Israel. Treat 9/11 like a crime more than an act of war. But this would be political suicide for any president to take this position, when a nation is screaming for blood, and all you care about is votes, you're going to go with the flood.

This war cannot be morally justified. Its a war fueled on revenge, something that reduces us to the level of our attackers. We were stung by a wasp and like an enraged bear we imprudently charge the nest, only to run away with our tail between our legs.

[Alchohlics_Anonymous]

^Hmm...whattabout Op Iraqi Freedom though? Democracy or not, our major goal was liberation, "To liberate the oppressed" I beleive was the slogan. And not to sound "cold" but whats wrong with playing with such "power politics"? Honestly, it has kept ALL of our asses happy, "rich" (vs. rest of gen. world), and ALIVE so far. I know I may not be able to convince you, but we really are safer due to our conquests over there, while noone can deny we have many enemies here in the US, MOST are busy fighting and dying in the Middle East trying to attack those who are trained to fight back. And beleive me (and I know you know this already) but we do much more than toss food to children/people. We play games, build trust, take and then answer their calls, dig in surrounding area/parks/etc. for buried explosives (meant as a stow-away that then go off accidently when a kid trips it).
Also how can we "practically" leave that whole area of the world? Humanitarially how could we? Weve had many problems with these terrorists, extremists, whatever MUCH MUCH longer than just since 9/11.

But for real atleast we and a few others on here can talk civilly bout such things.

[herbalizer]

it is about to get hectic

[Death Ray]

^Hmm...whattabout Op Iraqi Freedom though? Democracy or not, our major goal was liberation, "To liberate the oppressed" I beleive was the slogan. And not to sound "cold" but whats wrong with playing with such "power politics"? Honestly, it has kept ALL of our asses happy, "rich" (vs. rest of gen. world), and ALIVE so far. I know I may not be able to convince you, but we really are safer due to our conquests over there, while noone can deny we have many enemies here in the US, MOST are busy fighting and dying in the Middle East trying to attack those who are trained to fight back. And beleive me (and I know you know this already) but we do much more than toss food to children/people. We play games, build trust, take and then answer their calls, dig in surrounding area/parks/etc. for buried explosives (meant as a stow-away that then go off accidently when a kid trips it).
Also how can we "practically" leave that whole area of the world? Humanitarially how could we? Weve had many problems with these terrorists, extremists, whatever MUCH MUCH longer than just since 9/11.

But for real atleast we and a few others on here can talk civilly bout such things.

Op Iraqi Liberation was just a front to remove Saddam from power and secure the oil fields that he controlled in Iraq. Companies like Halliburton are now flocking to Iraq to purchase oil fields and have a stake there, because they're all essentially up for grabs.

[Alchohlics_Anonymous]

But honestly whats wrong with trying to help an area out while also getting rich? Unfortunately without thinking like that by our govt we wouldnt be the country we are today, prosperous and all (aside from the recession or whatever were calling it now). And honestly, we are a "better" country than most ME countries. We lack the oppresion, poverty, extreme violence, etc. that they all do (obviously on totally differant levels we have all these things). Theres no arguing that. Anyone can pick out things that theyre better at than us, and vice versa. But it would seem that what really matters is standard of living. And if we can maybe improve their SOL while simutaneously improving ours, I say we do it. Because whether we are at war over there or not, wed still be trying just as hard to get in on these oil feilds.

[Thrice]

Wait a second, this thread is about starship troopers, no?

[PulseWithLife]

Haha, australians are so racist. Your going on about africans and muslims coming to australia and not accepting 'your ways', hey mate, remember that you lot came to australia and basically wiped out the aboriginal race, tried to actively breed them out of existence, took their children from their families and put them in white families, and only in a 1967 referendum even considered them humans and not animals. 1967 for fucks sake!
You lot didn't exactly accept 'their ways' did you? Your country only officially apologized for these atrocities 2 years ago or some shit. You just sound like a racist.

[qyangluo]

haha alright


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[Death Ray]

But honestly whats wrong with trying to help an area out while also getting rich? Unfortunately without thinking like that by our govt we wouldnt be the country we are today, prosperous and all (aside from the recession or whatever were calling it now). And honestly, we are a "better" country than most ME countries. We lack the oppresion, poverty, extreme violence, etc. that they all do (obviously on totally differant levels we have all these things). Theres no arguing that. Anyone can pick out things that theyre better at than us, and vice versa. But it would seem that what really matters is standard of living. And if we can maybe improve their SOL while simutaneously improving ours, I say we do it. Because whether we are at war over there or not, wed still be trying just as hard to get in on these oil feilds.

But the fact that we are creating monopolies on foreign oil fields will not really improve our quality of living; it's not like oil companies will start handing out free money to the average American. And foreign investors on local fields will muscle out competition from ME companies, thus creating less local economy, aside from perhaps employment of locals. The subsequent invasion of Iraq was not a liberation oriented goal, but one under the cover of greed conveniently under the blanket of freeing an oppressed people. It could even be possible revenge by Bush Jr for his father's loss to Saddam (seeing as he was still in power, US did not win the Gulf War). Although Saddam ruled with an iron fist and committed atrocities, he essentially kept the area under control. The War in the ME should've strictly been kept within Afghanistan regarding the Taliban.

[Alchohlics_Anonymous]

True, but its not just localized to Afghanistan. And the monopolization of oil will raise our SOL. Oil is quickly running out, in our lifetimes we will see this happen unless we can find another way. Honestly, without oil our economy, our WORLD would fall the fuck apart. And while this is a very sad fact, it is just that, a fact. And when your faced with a global crash, you only look out for yourself, or in this case your nation. While I dont advocate killing thousands for something like oil, I do beleive its a neccesity, as fucked up as that may be. When I was stationed over there, I saw what we were dealing with, that area will be the death of civilization, no doubt about it. But if we can hold onto our SOL for as long as possible when theres an imminent threat (war, no oil, economy, etc.) then Im all for it. Btw I have NO hard feelings towards ME people, most of them are great, loving, kind, intelligent people.

And Im kinda seeing this pakastani chick, so I just thought Id throw that out there to show how unracist/cool I am....lmao.